NH29s, military or not? (Wes)

[mizunoyoroko]

Well as the question asks.


Is this change retroactive?

If so, please understand the amount of work that will need to be retconned. Characters will need to be magically changed, character histories will need to be retconned, completed plots will need to be retconned, and some current plots will need to be abandoned.

You did this a year ago, and we talked about it then viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1840

 

[Fred]

The NH-29 being purely military is actually inacceptable. It goes against one of the very reasons why the NH-29 was created (Wes made a thread with bare-bones element ideas for the creation of the next nekovalkyrja and I actually wrote the thing and submitted it, at which point it was approved).

The NH-29 was supposed to help the NH-29 establish themselves as a race. It was a nekovalkyrja designed by neko, for neko whom didn't want to be dumbed down to 'human standards' if they were going to adopt a civilian lifestyle. It's purpose, it's capabilities, it's history... all point to that.

If we were speaking of the NH-27, now I could relate. But not with this. My own input, seeing I had a considerable role in their creation, would be to ask for Wes to retract the edit - please.

 

[Vesper]

I agree with Fred here. The only reason for the model to be created was for it to transition seamlessly to civilian life. If they are military-only their isn't any good IC reason for them to have been created. The NH17 and NH27 are better at every area than the NH29 so if they will never leave the military with the NH29 body their isn't any reason for it have been made, they would have just stuck with the NH17/27.

 

[Teddo]

Page edited. Issue is now resolved.

I believe this refers to:

Please note Nekovalkyrja are only allowed to live within the Yamatai Star Empire.

Which obviates the fact that they can, indeed, be civilians. I think this issue was resolved at the point at which Doshii said this. That should clarify it.

I think the real question that arose in our conversation about this, though, is how strictly is 'Yamatai Star Empire' defined? The character in question is a Neko civilian who will be employed by Origin for missions that will likely wander out of the borders of the Empire.

 

[raz]

I agree with Wes' decision. Nekovalkyrja have no place being civilians. If they want that life, they should transfer to the NH-22 Yamataian body, which was expressly created so that former military Neko could live as civilians without vastly diminished ability and the civilian populace could have a service pack upgrade of sorts. No civilian needs a SPINE interface, which is strictly military technology, or things like holographic projection.

 

[Vesper]

I don't necessarily disagree with you Raz. The Neko /are/ weapons and should be RPed as such. The fact of the matter is that they are /not/ . By a lot of players, none of whom are going to change how they RP them I would think.

I would direct you to the NH29 history section:

The latest NH-29 Nekovalkyrja (Type 29) was made by the Star Army Research Administration as an answer to the NH-22C/Yamataians, so that the Nekovalkyrja could continue their own species instead of being absorbed by another.

From this we can infer that the NH29 body was intended to be used by the consciousness both within the military and without. It is the only sensible interpertation of this quote. If that is not the case, their is no reason for the NH29 to have been created at all. Old models surpass it in every other way.

Now, the part where a stretch was made, I think, is that the NH29 are /created as civilians/. By the article no NH29 was ever intended to be /created as a civilian/. Civilian NH29, going by the article, would only exist as retired military personnel. Since normal procedure requires 3 years of service the only civilian NH29 would be once allowed to retired on special dispensations so would be very rare.

Now, the above is based on the wiki article and history that only dates back to March (when I gather their was a server issue) so it may have said something different earlier.

In regards to Neko in general existing only in the YSE, their is a simple solution here. Wes just needs to say they will be arrested and imprisoned if they try to leave Yamataian space. BAM, there you are. Problem solved. If its illegal for them to leave Yamatai space in the first place it doesn't matter what other nations have to say on the matter, you nip the problem in the bud. On the other hand, this does contradict the whole "we are nice people" thing that Wes has been saying for awhile, but its by far the easiest solution.

Edit: Also, if the NH29 was never intended to become civilians (whether after military service or from the start) then the only explanation we have for their existence, from a IC perspective, is that the Yamataian High Command are bunch of idiots. It is the only other explanation available.

 

[raz]

All of that aside, I think the biggest problem here is that Wes made a decision and, as has happened in the past, when people don't like it, will complain until it is changed to fit their view of how things should be.

 

[Gamerofthegame]

As much as I like the debate the psycology and such of Neko...

This is not the topic for this.

NH29s should not be military only... And, truthfully, I imagine that in reality no Neko should be. Why? Because Neko are in power in Yamatai, there is no doubt to this. Why would they force their kin to lower themselves when they were born with these... Powers and such, thus have self control.

From a IC view point, at least.

... However, to say something is a weapon, raz, and a weapon alone is mentally degrading. This is one of the key conflicts in the site, in fact... This racism. I, personally, rarely say that 'Nekos are weapons and nothing more'... I say, the equally, if not more, truthful statement of; 'Neko aren't humans, no matter how much people RP them such'...

In anycase, this particular subject isn't really the case of the topic.

 

[Revolver]

Ringo doesn't care that she's a weapon. She knows that's what she was made for, and really, how many of us can say we know what our creator made us for?


That being said, whether NH-29s can be civilians or not, I don't care, I'd just like to see some consistency.

 

[Fred]

I see far more imprecations in this regard.

A nekovalkyrja is a nekovalkyrja. Some are born that way, others are transfered. Some transfered out of protocol, others to further their own race. Fact is, it's them... especially seeing Yamatai's laws pretty much abolished the use of slaves, meaning that NH-29 nekovalkyrja bodies are not property, but living beings. This alone eliminates the argument of military property, if the initial article doesn't.

Most nekovalkyrja are usually not too motivated in leaving Yamatai, certainly would not be accepted on Nepleslian soil -despite- not really being all that more powerful to a Yamataian, but that still should leave them with the freedom to choose what turn they wish to give their life if they are not undergoing a military career.

Any mention otherwise would be setting a rather cruel double-standard. Some nekos still exist in the UOC and they should not have been illegal. With the new laws Himiko came up with, even if they were illegal they should no longer be considered such.

Raz, you can be snide over the issue, but the fact is that as portrayed in the opening post, this little detail Wes retconned in is pretty much tantamount to him tying the shoelaces of both his shoes together and then walking that way, tripping repeatedly because of it - and we're pointing it out to him so he can stop stumbling around over this issue. Secondly, as the creator of the subrace - I at the very minimum have room for answer on the question, with Wes being the only one whom can really debate my point of view with any right of veto if it makes sense. On the reverse point of view, it's exactly what I'm exercising right now.

 

[Teddo]

All of that aside, I think the biggest problem here is that Wes made a decision and, as has happened in the past, when people don't like it, will complain until it is changed to fit their view of how things should be.

Which is, in fact, the monstrosity known as Democracy. In fact, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government. Except all the others that have been tried.



****EDIT****
But dripping sarcasm aside, if NH-29s are expressly made for military operation, please present me with logical IC explanations for these questions:
-Why can NH-29s get pregnant, and individually determine what the child is like? Even if the specifications are counterintuitive to military usage?
-In regards to the above, why does it exist when NH-29s are far more easily produced en masse on Yamatai?
-In regards to the slave laws, if an NH-29 body is considered military property, what constitutes a living being? The laws dictate that sprites can't simply be 'recycled' back into a ship, because they are, in fact, alive.
-Why, IC, would the Star Army significantly downgrade the capabilities of a strictly military-use Neko? OOC aside, they went from being monstrously powerful to.... pretty much the same as a Yamataian, physically. The only logical conclusion is to make them more civilian-friendly.
-How is the ruling class mostly Nekos when they're not allowed to leave the military?
-WHY would this rule exist if Nekos are the ruling class?
-Why would the rule exist period? SPINE isn't THAT amazing. Without military resources, all it would be really good for is a super-fast internet connection.
-If it's not SPINE, what's so significant about the NH-29 that restricts them from being a civilian?



And, to the comment on skin camo, that's a restricted model. It's only used by request for combat missions. The only Neko on record that actually gets to keep that capability is *coughinlinetobethenextempresscough*.

But in all seriousness, if there isn't a really significant reason why this rule would exist, why have it? Enforcing it would mean doing an exceptional amount of retconing.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Wes, as far as I know, did not explain his reasoning for changing the page that controls the NH-29. That's this one here.

Note, under old revisions, the only change made was to put in the word "only" — from "for use in the Star Army of Yamatai" to "for use (only) in the Star Army of Yamatai". This drastically changes how the race can operate outside of the military.

I'm a global mod now, so I assume I'm supposed to be supportive of Wes' decisions and be a good field commander for my general (sticking with the Army thing here).

But that's not how I work. I don't care about logic, raz and Vesper. What I care about is that players, who I'm supposed to serve, were told one thing when creating their characters, and are now being told something completely different. Something that could radically change how they play their characters now or in the future.

That just doesn't make any damn sense to do that to people. Retconning is one thing, but why this? Why this, on May 1, after we were supposed to have fixed it?

 

[raz]

That's really, really disheartening to hear from you, Jake. Like whoa. It looks like we'll just have to wait for now as Wes is doing far more important things.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I don't like it either, raz, but it's his race, and now that players have called him out publicly about why this change took place, he has to justify himself.

 

[MissingNo]

You did this a year ago, and we talked about it then viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1840

If this has already been resolved, why go over it again?

 

[Fred]

Simple.

I'll figure out what to do and get back to you guys on this.

He never did.

I'd also want a very clear rationale as to why he contradicted the stuff I wrote before, seeing other elements such as history, cultural notes, contextual reasons why the NH-29 was created in the first place and such. It was a retcon, and a sneak one at that, so it deserves to be talked about - not hid under a carpet.

 

[mizunoyoroko]

Okay, at the end of the above linked thread Doshii indicated that Wes had gotten back with him and had decided to drop the matter.

While the discussion is nice, it really won't do much but make it a longer thread for Wes to read when he gets back. I appreciate the input that everybody has given regarding this, even those that think it is a fine decision by Wes. However in the interest of Wes's sanity when he comes back let's hold off on discussing this anymore.

Once Wes has responded would be the more appropriate time to discuss the matter.

 

[Exhack]

Related.

 

[Zack]

Does anyone have a link to where Wes said that they were civilian? (Perhaps in a character approval thread where he approves a civilian NH-29 himself?)

I looked around and Wes has been consistent in saying they are military only in everything I've seen. The only reason I can see for this even coming up is people are making assumptions based what they are reading that aren't accurate.

 

[Doshii Jun]

The only evidence I have is the link I referred to, with its previous edit, and how it was handled the first time around — meant for use in the Star Army, but could theoretically retire. There was no assumption that an NH-29 could start OUTSIDE of the Star Army, at least not at the time.

Wes' concern was he didn't want Nepleslia to have access to NH-29. The older Neko (NH-7, some of the 17Rs) are already there. The compromise was making the 29s live only in the Yamatai Star Empire.

But I'm with Yoroko. Let's wait on this. For now, I'm locking the topic.